Phil and I forfeited our game yesterday vs. New Zealand for a variety of reasons. One, it has been well documented that my back has been a source of irritation and concern this year. Rather than play and risk that injury, we decided it would be better not to as we had learned that we were guaranteed to come out of our pool.
Secondly, most people probably don't know this but I and all the americans want it to be known that the FIVB changed the Bonus Pool structure this year. Bonus Pool Money is essentially half the money that players get for playing in the FIVB events. Last year the structure was to get all of your BP money, you had to play in 8 FIVB events. You could get 70% of your BP Money by playing in 4 FIVB events. The percentage went up from there until you reached 100% at 8 events. This was confirmed at the FIVB World Council meetings and Permanent Committee meetings last year in late September. Then the changeover from President Acosta to President Wei happened and there was a huge shake up at the FIVB with everyone jockeying for position. Out of the tussle came the President of the Brazilian National Federation AND President of the South American Confederation (similar to NORCECA), Ari Graca. He arbitrarily changed the Bonus Pool Structure in March. Teams now have to play in all of the FIVB events except 3 to get any Bonus Pool Money at all!!! This of course completely screws the American players. Essentially we are being asked to pick between the FIVB Tour or the AVP Tour. The Euro's are okay with it since most of them do not have national tours. The Brazilians are fine with it as their national tour is in the northern hemispheres winter time and there are pretty much no FIVB events during that time. I have been told that the reason for the change is to get the players more committed to the FIVB. I posed the questions that, "don't you think this is going to hurt any current national tours in the northern hemisphere as well as any national tours in the northern hemisphere that would like to start up?" "Isn't the FIVB mandated by the IOC to try and help the national federations grow the sport in each country?"
So for Phil and I, we have to make a decision on who to support. It was a no brainer for us. The AVP is why the American men and women have done so well in the Olympics in my opinion. Who has strong domestic tours in the world? The Brazilians and Americans. The two most dominant countries in the world. To forsake our bread and butter just doesn't make sense. Also, and I am not accusing here, just questioning, who benefits the most from this change? The Brazilians. They already have a national tour and it does not affect it. They tend to play in almost all of the FIVB events as well. My question is and I can't truly say yes or no, is it a coincidence that this was changed considering who is now in power?
The bottom line for Phil and I was we were all set to play in 8 FIVB events this year. We were okay with missing 2 AVP events as we didn't think it would kill our tour. Would it hurt it a bit, yes, but I think it was a fair compromise for everyone. But to ask us to miss 6 events would severely hurt the tour and we won't do that.
I am curious as to what people think out there? Please comment.
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54 comments:
I can only say, unfortunately, us New Yorkers get shortchanged this weekend and one of a few reasons I won't be attending Coney Island this weekend is that all the top teams won't be there. Had the top Americans played in all the required tournaments to get the bonus money, I think it would definitely have an impact on the AVP.
Garret
The fact that the bonus pool rules were changed after an agreement was reached is enough for complaint in itself. Not to mention I feel you make a great point regarding the concept of furthering the sport with national tours.
Kudos to you and Phil for showing your support for the tour (quick question, though - I'm aware you're missing the Brooklyn stop, but you mentioned missing another AVP open in your blog?).
Best of luck to you and Phil in your remaining matches in Norway...
Wow. I can understand your frustration on this. I suppose that my feelings about the top teams missing this weekend's tourney in Coney Island is shared by international FIVB fans who don't get to see the gold medal winners compete in their local tour stops.
But I think the point about strengthening domestic tours is the key one here and I hope we can see the decision reversed.
Is there anything we can do along the lines of sending emails to the FIVB, etc?
Luke
Hey TJ,
It comes down to power and money. Which one was the driver here or both usually takes time to reveal. Looks to me like both are at play here. New exec's new power struggles and the bonus pool changes = money.
Good point about the local tours. If you look back through the Olympics since the inception of Beach Volleyball, basically the countries with Domestic tours have simply dominated. The sad fact is even though the members of the FIVB exec group should be acting on behalf of ALL of the players the reality is that most often people in power tend towards their own agendas, even though their responsibility is to be equal to all.
GL out there. Win the World Championships! Win the Grand Slams and then maybe throw it into a speech on stage, with the news, with papers. Get business cards from press people, news agencies, ask for extra interview time. State your case clearly and don't be afraid to work hard for all of the players on tour.
See if you can get some of the other players involved. You and Phil as the reigning world Champs and Olympic Gold medalist can use your platform to make an issue of it. Make sure to have all the facts you can get. You win this week and your platform AND your voice get knocked up a few octaves.
GL - DR
I agree with the above - obviously politically motivated by the Brazilians. That's a shame.
I´ve been waiting for this topic to be discussed since I asked for your opinion a couple of months ago about this and the new Olympic Qualy system and I share the same feeling. This obviously affects ALL the players on tour, including europeans, brazilians and asians and it´s strange that they didn´t make a bigger protest against it. And Ari Graca is also the one who proposed a change in the Olympic Qualy which is really complicated and with more stages than the used for Beijing and Athens. The only explanation I can think of, is that if you take into account the economic crisis maybe the FIVB is trying to cut some of their expenses, but even that way is completely unfair. This is clearly not a good year to play the World Tour, at least not with this new rules.
As a european player (national level, not concerned by the world tour), I must say I understand the FIVB decision and I don't believe this is politically motivated by the Brazilians since they don't really get anything from it.
The FIVB just expect the best players to focus on the international tour rather than their national one, nothing surprising there. Where is the credibility of the international tour without the top three american team on events such as Roma, Shangai or Myslowice...we want to see Ricardo or Alison face Phil more often...
But, I also understand the american point of view, why would you travel all around the world when you can play in a very strong AVP tour and make about the same amount of money than abroad...
Finally, I believe this is a form of recognition from the FIVB world tour towards the american players; they must have asked themselves: are we really an international tour when the country that has created the game (and domitates it?) is represented in less than a third of the events of the season...
The professor is absolutely correct here. Good for you for putting it out there in front of everyone. Especially potent coming from the Gold Medalists, and current world champions.
No question this major shift in money benefits those associated with making the decision. Kinda like most economic policies that aren't really democratic.
I think the US needs to keep doing what it's doing. DOMINATE the sport. That will continue to diminish the FIVB for not providing a more fair economic platform for all competing teams and countries.
And, no question FIVB will be losing ticket sales and likely sponsor money for not having 3 or 4 of the top 16 teams competing regularly.
So I say, let's have an all american podium at this World Championships.
And then talk up the unfair changes in the media. Make FIVB look even worse than it does right now.
Wow!! This is nuts. You would think that the FIVB would consider that when making their decision. My guess is that they did and are wanting to take the top American teams from the AVP. I hate to say I understand their point, but I do. They are being greedy and it could hurt them. American teams that do that full time may not be known very well here, or could be thought of like Sinjin Smith and Carl Henkel. They were the made the bad guys compared to Karch/Kent and Dodd/Whit. To make an agreement and then change it totally ruins the FIVB's credibility to future sponsors too. If they change policy here, what's to say they won't do it later for other things.
With the monopoly that doesn't help to create European tours, how do the Euros develop the sport at the highest level? With the Brazilians playing year round, they CAN develop high level players and lots of them. (This doesn't do much for time off and rest, though.) Why don't they have FIVB events in the Southern hemisphere during our Fall or Winter?
Why are there no FIVB events in the US (you know, the place that created beach volleyball)? Hold a World Championship at Manhattan Beach and you want to see a raucous crowd.... it'll make Brazilian events look like recess in kindergarten.
Garret...What the heck are you saying? None of the top teams will be in Coney Island? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? How about the Team of Hyden/Scott who have beaten Phil and Todd the last 2 AVP Tournaments? Are you saying they are not a top team?
Sounds to me like the excuse should be that you are just NOT THAT INTO Beach Volleyball...if you were you would know that Hyden/Scott are a top team and will be in Coney Island, and probably WIN.
Are you kidding me??? Not a top team??? Hyden has been "King" and "God" of the beach 2 years in a row now...do you know the last (and only) person to do this besides John Hyden is Karch?
Brush up on you Beach Volleyball and the standings before you decide to NOT go to a Tournament Garret!!!!
As a Southamerican player, this new Bonus Pool rules are terribles. To begin with, if we even want to play any Open anywhere in the world, we have to pay for everything (plain tickets, hotel, transpotation, etc). If we sum to that the fact that we have to be in at least 12 of the 15 events of the year just to get the Bonus Pool it´s absolutely impossible to play in the World Tour. But I still can´t understand why there wasn´t a bigger complain from the players, because it´s also true that it is worse for the european National Federations because they won´t be able to develop serious National Circuits
TJ,
If you win, I'd pack it up and come home and let them know you're not happy with the BP situation.
As far as Hyden/Scott, yes they are a good team. How about sending them across the pond a few times and see how focused they can stay on the AVP tour. They haven't had to do anything but prepare for AVP events, it does make a little difference. I hope they win too, Sean needs to support his kid!
JR.
I say BOOOOO to the FIVB. Has been fun watching online though. Wonder if DirecTV will pick up Universal Sports at some point.
Hey Anonymous...
Hyden/Scott have not intention and are not interested in the Olympics anymore. They have been there and done that.
You can't knock them for not wanting to anymore...hell Hyden played in 2 Indoor Olympics (Atlanta and Australia). He is done with the hassles and problems with the Olympics.
So I don't see them going across any pond ever (been there done that). Some people get to the point where they don't want to travel internationally anymore...coming from the NAVY I know its not fun to travel for work.
The facts are...
Phil and Todd won GOLD in the last olympics.
Phil and Todd are still number 2 seeds Internationally.
Phil and Todd have lost the last 2 Tournaments to Hyden/Scott.
I would have to say that if Hyden/Scott DID want to go across the pond...they could still beat the number 2 seeds (they have the last 2 AVP tournaments.
I don't think Hyden/Scott have anything to prove to the international community if they are beating the internations top seed. Enough said!
Anonymous,
Ok forgive me Hyden/Scott are one of the top teams on the tour. You are right on that point. I am a huge fan of the Beach Volleyball so try to stay out of my head, ok? It's obvious you are a big Hyden fan and if I offended, I'm sorry. Yeah, one of the reasons I won't be going is because I like watching Todd & Phil and Jennings & Furby & Gibb & Rosie play. With my job, I don't have weekends off and I don't have many floating days to use so...let me amend my point by saying, there could be the possibility that the non beach volleyball fan won't be attending Coney Island because Todd & Phil and Misty & Kerri won't be there. Again, sorry if I offended Scott/Hyden and their fans. And Anonymous, please find it in your heart to forgive me. I hope we're still buds.
Garret,
Of course we are still buds.
Thanks for correcting yourself.
I agree with you that Non-Beach Volleyball fans would be dissapointed to know that the "household" names of Phil and Todd will not be at Coney Island. They may even skip the tournament because all they want to see is Todd and Phil. I guess that is pretty understandable unless you follow Beach Volleyball and know of other names like Nygard, Hyden, Scott, Stein, Wong...etc.
I see your point!
I am a AVP fan and go to as many as Tournaments as I can every year for about 5 years now. I forget that not everyone knows all the players on the AVP and its hard to think that fans have such "narrow minds" that they would ONLY want to go to a Tournament to see Todd and Phil. I would question some of the men in that catagory and ask if they are homo? "I'm not going unless I can see Todd and Phil" seems a little homo to me.
Give other players a chance...maybe go to watch some of the women on tour???
Garret- Amen. and sorry.
Steve H. - Currently Phil and I are not planning on missing any more AVP events.
Luke- I think it would be great if people sent the FIVB letters. I will have to get the address and post it.
Dean- Your points are, as usual, right on. There are some things in the works on that front but I am currently unable to go into detail. I will post on it as soon as I can though.
Nick- Your point is well taken. But with the Olympic Qualification going back to the individual countries, there is very little reason to play in anything but the biggest events on the FIVB tour to keep your points up in the main draw and to qualify a spot for your country. I always felt like what we had was a good compromise. This is more the FIVB throwing compromise out the window. There way or the highway.
Matt- I like your spirit! Make the Brazi events look like recess in Kindergarten. Loved that one. There is a euro tour called the CEV. They have like 4 or 5 events a year. You can't play just the CEV and make a living. There are some small tours in Swissland and some other random events in other countries but nothing like Brazil or the USA have. Most of the Euro's go to Brazil or Cali to train to get better. I wish they did have more events in the fall and winter. It would make it easier for northern hemi countries. Lot of politics on the USA FIVB event. That is a whole other topic.
Anonymous- Seriously!? I agree that John/Sean are a top team on the AVP tour and that John is a great player but I think you are a little overboard here. Who are you by the way?
Southamerican Player- Do you play on the FIVB tour? I can see your point. It is good for the south american players already in the main draw but terrible for any trying to break in. You have to invest a lot of money like you said and travel around the world.
JR- I agree with you and they both have to support their kids. :)
Anonymous - Well spoken.
Garret- I didn't even need to reply for you.
Todd
Here are a few other things to think about.
Although the FIVB has drastically changed policy that will hurt the US domestic tour, the AVP is not with out fault.
For many years Leonard has chosen to not work with the FIVB and in fact tried to compete with the FIVB. It was under Leonard's watch that he had all the AVP players sign contracts forcing them to play in AVP events when there might be a bigger more important FIVB event going on in the world.
Rather than working with the FIVB the AVP has chosen to be it's competitor. That is why there are no FIVB competitions in the US. The AVP recently started a tour in Australia further threatening the FIVB's position as the International Tour. Wrong or right there is a "pissing match" going on here.
The FIVB publishes it's schedule almost 9 months before the season starts. The AVP has the opportunity to see the schedule and schedule events around the FIVB events but for years this has not been done.
With the AVP under new management it will be interesting to see how and if the two tours work together.
Todd,
Congrats on your win to get into the round of 16. Good luck against Latvia. Also glad to see the other Americans teams(men & women) doing well. Again, it sucks that Rosie/Gibb had to play Keenan/Lucena but them's the breaks.
Reading all the posts about this topic, I now see both sides of the argument. Hopefully both organizations can come to some agreement in the future.
I think this blog and its followers(from all walks of life & volleyball!) is really cool. Thanks Todd for taking the time(not that you were that busy in Norway anyway!!j/k) and letting us share our thoughts with you & for caring enough to get back to us.
It is time for some FIVB events in the US instead of having 75% of them in Europe where the weather is 60 deg. F half of the time. The world championships should be in Manhattan Beach. If the FIVB wants all the best players they should give enough prize money to make the players not want to miss the events as opposed to withholding money. Whatever happened to capitalism.
Interesting issue. Tours like the PGA, and ATP have minimum number of tournaments you must attend as well, but I'm not sure how it's tied to their pay. It almost seems like the FIVB would be better off dropping the number of events making it easier for a higher percentages to be met. I'd actually like to see the confederations(NORCECA,CEV,CSV) have tours where you qualify for the FIVB events. It seems like NORCECA has stepped it up a bit the last 2 years.
As far as the choice who to choose, I think it depends on where you are in life, having a family would definately make it harder. It would seam like you would want to find a place in europe for a home base instead of flying back to the states.
BTW, it's been nice that univesalsports.com has been showing some live matches.
Good luck guys,
Jim Beaird
Orlando
Jim Beaird:
I don´t know what the NORCECA has been doing the past few years. I know that, for example, the CSV has 3 stages of the Southamerican Circuit (yes, three) a year and the prize money are hilarious and of course they don´t qualify for FIVB events and I don´t think they ever will. The CEV Tour usually has 5 o 6 stages a year, this year it has 5 and 3 Satellites, the Main Draw has 16 teams and the Prize Money is 70-100.000 euros, whisc is not bad at all. Besides, this year the CEV made its calendary so the CEV Tour won´t interfere with FIVB events, so the euro players have always something to play (not to mention that 80% of the FIVB events are in Europe)
If Todd and Phil decided to play from now on on AVP events I think it´s the right call, it´s a good way for players to tell the FIVB they can´t change rules
arbitrarily
Todd-
I have been at Disney World in Florida pretty much the last 2 weeks. They have a fantastic Norway area in EPCOT park. On the flight from Orlando to Providence last night the guy serving the drinks on Southwest Air look exaclty like Phil. My wife and daughters spent all my money so I have time to read all your updates now. I see you smoked the Latvians today. Nice.
Like I said in a previous post I remember seeing a 20 yr old Karch Kiraly carrying a picket sign....he is going to be 50 next year and the sport seems to always be in turmoil. Jerry Solomon had a vision of Beach VB being like the tennis ATP. Beach VB needs to find a guy like David Stern that can bring this all together. Stern took the NBA out of the gutter and made it world renowned.
The weather here in New England has been the coldest and rainiest in history for June. My wife turned on the heat last night on July 3rd! Boston Police say violent crime is up because people are so distraught over the constant clouds and rain. So the patterns must be pushing all the warm air up towards Norway and England where Wimbeldon has been hot.
One final note or question. Is the AVP doing anything for the Troops? A tournament where all the players where camo trunks and donate some money to a cause that helps the kids of fallen soldiers or injured troops would be cool. Enjoy your European vacation and we REALLY appreciate the updates...HAPPY 4th of July!!! Scott from Cape Cod
Looked like a pretty easy match today, I could only go by the FIVB real time scoreboard since they weren't showing your match. Very happy you & Phil and Casey/Furby made it through to the round of 8. Good luck tomorrow & Happy July 4th!
Represent!!!
26 comments! wow. and all about the money and bonus pool. that's US ;_) business instead of sports? cause nothing about the rules about the pool ranking. as a beach volley fan I think it's also worth a discussion if it it's better to forfeit a match by injury - and stay into the competition - then to play the match. it's not only todd/phil's match vs the kiwis. look at the dutch team coming out of the pool senseless with two (real) forfeits instead of ARG with two played losses.
How stupid is it to ignore the sets? How stupid is it to count a forfeit 0:2 but with NO points (0:0;0:0)? Better back to double elim
very interested in comments
tom, austria
by the way: we accept the challenge it manhattan beach or klagenfurt will have the better world championships *big smile*
Sorry, found everything in the Gibb/Rosy topic
Tom
A discreet form of protest and furthering this discussions in the press is the right way to go.
Keep taking the high road!
Todd, I ended up out on Coney Island over the weekend and echo the comments from those New Yorkers that felt shortchanged. (Was sorry to see no one there who I recognized from my SB days!) Sorry to hear the back is plaguing you as well -- sounds like you need a trainer on par with those of us from your college days :) Great to see you doing so well!!
Congrats on making it to the semi's. Congrats also to Furby/Jennings... 37-35 second game! That must have been amazing to watch...and 17-15 in the third game, as close as you can get without winning. Also congrats to Ross/Kessy for winning on the womens' side. Good luck tomorrow against the Germans and then either the Germans or the Brazilians.
Great game from Brinks-Reckerman...Brinks cut shot is simply amazing...gave you a hard time to defend...
Klemperer-Koreng should'nt be too hard to beat...you've done it before in the olympics, we are confident...
Germans Won on their home court. Good run at it.
Next year Todd!
HYDEN AND SCOTT 3 IN A ROW BABY!!!!!!
Oh and HYDEN SCOTT are #1 in the CROCS cup standings this year now. WOO HOO!
That means nothing, the three top us team were in Stavanger...
OUCH. Hyden Scott looked like crap. Congrats to Patterson Loomis well played wow.
Hyden Scott need to rethink that one.
OUCH!
Nice to see some random teams doing well...not all Todd and Phil
OUCH!
I eat my words from earlier...ewww they are all sandy.
I think it is pathetic that both tours (AVP and FIVB) don't try to coexist. In my mind the major culprit in this is the FIVB, but both tours share some of the blame. Ideally, the tours would alternate events every other week and both could present world class entertainment.
Does changing the way bonus pool money is distributed near the beginning of the season stink? You bet it does! Does not having FIVB events in North America demonstrate a failure on the FIVB's part? Of course it does. Let's try to create an atmosphere that promotes the sport throughout the world. Both tours need to work collabratively to enhance the sport and support the atheletes, financially and otherwise.
They are afraid of getting their butt kicked by you guys. (They being the Brazillians.) Clearly they see the AVP as a threat because it develops new teams and players that will challenge them in the future. If they can eliminate that they seem to think they will dominate. Kudos to you guys for hanging with the AVP!! I was at the OC tourney and you guys were fun to watch.
Everyone's biggest issue with the FIVB is that the tour doesn't come to America. They should spend 2-3 weeks here with events.
Noticed you and Phil are wearing bracelets / watches at FIVB this weekend - any significance?
Its very difficult to not get railroaded by the changes the FIVB make, bringing in lawyers probably would be the only way to make a debate for the freedom of trade and the restrications that seem to be in place by the FIVB ruling. I went down this route a little with the changes in pregnancy points back in 2003 and although i didnt spend any money the battle would have been swamped in paper work. The R.O.W have admired the Brazilians and Americans not just because of the level of play but also the lack of financial support and that you go it alone (or did?) and still manage to almost kick butt every time...
Loved the last few points of the first set of your game against Klemperer/Koreng. You bloking, and phil actually doing a great defense...
$8750 VS 15000... OUCH
Way to go, Todd. Stand up for yourself. You certainly were justified for opting out under the circumstances.
Todd - I don't think missing you for 6 AVP stops will kill the AVP tour or even affect it that much. I know for a fact that the California AVP finals always have lots of empty seats in the stadium no matter who is playing (you and Phil included). It is dissapointing to see the stands so empty at the AVP finals.
It looks like the stands are empty in other states on the AVP tour as well. OC and Atlanta both had empty places in the stands for both those finals.
The AVP just does not get very many fans out. It hurts the tour more to have events in places like Harrah's. Who is going to drive out to a Casino in the middle of nowhere to watch an AVP event? Only hardcore fans, unless the casino is in Vegas.
The AVP might as well stop at shoppin malls on tour. They would pull in way more "passer bys" and also bring crowds to the mall to shop. I bet you would have a better turnout having the AVP at a big shopping mall rather than Harrah's.
Losing Todd and Phil for 6 AVP events will not destroy the AVP. The AVP already has slim turnouts as it is.
I guess we could call it the Todd, Phil, Rosey, Gibb, Jennings and Furby AVP Tour?
Because those seem to be the only guys in beach volleyball right?
Enough is enough!
Remember, this is Todd's blog, not the AVP or FIVB blog. Most of us are FANS of TODD/PHIL and are here to see what Todd has to offer about the tourneys etc., not what you think.
Anonymous...
Todd started this post asking what we all thought about him and Phil missing AVP events for FIVB.
I was letting him know that it does not matter to me.
He asked.
I answered.
50!!!!
Wow. Great to see the commentary. I am glad people feel free to comment as they want to. It gives me a good idea of where people in general stand out there. Not going to answer every post though. Sorry. Switzerland starts tomorrow and I will update as we go.
Todd
Hi there, just some comments from Europe.
First of all, there are national tours at least in Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Russia - they don't have the intensity and level of AVP, but anyway the players do have to participate there as well. Also, there are 5 CEV (European Tour) Events, which they also have to participate in, in order to have any European rang points. CEV somehow manages to organize their Tours around FIVB Events.
Second, in the WT Player Commitment from the FIVB Web Site (http://www.fivb.org/EN/BeachVolleyball/Forms/Athletes/2009-2012NF-Player%27s%20Committment.pdf) it is said, that you can miss 4 events, not 3. Which makes it this year a total of 10 Events. Also it is said in 5.1 "the fivb will have the right to withhold financial benefits such as the bonus pool". Which probably mean, that they are not going to pay, but you can't be sure about that.
And on my very personal opinion as a person living in Europe and visiting the FIVB Tours in Europe by any chance (and the most events are played in Europe), more players from US will make the events more interesting for the visitors, which means more money, more sponsors and so on. The Brazilians and the Europeans do there fair share for that.You also can't really say, that the level of FIVB events is not that high, as AVP Tour. Last year Americans played in 9 events from 20. So somehow it is possible to organize.
I really enjoy watching you and Phil playing and i really wish for me that you play more FIVB Events, because for me it is the only chance to see you play.
Regards,
Tatiana
Phil and guild wars 2 gold I forfeited our game yesterday vs. New Zealand for a variety of reasons. One, it has been well documented that my back has been a source of irritation and concern this year. Rather than play and risk that injury, we gw2 gold decided it would be better not to as we had learned that we were guaranteed to come out of our pool.
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